I'm pretty sure I was asleep that day in kindergarten, when we learned that W was a vowel? Where did that come from (Oliver, page 21) and why do you think its considered one?
Do you think about sound as specifically as Mary Oliver does? Do you concentrate on something so precise when you write a poem, or is it less important to you in your everyday writing?
"The major problem in creative writing is creative writing." Pg 23, Myers. He goes on to say that the contents of a poem comes from itself, and we somehow want to or need to change a poem it is best to look back at it. First, do you agree? Do you look back at your own poem to change it? And are there poems you feel you don't need to change.
Words for thought,
R and K
I think it did not hold because it was an imperfect pattern. Some words seem to fit the pattern (such as the rock vs stone, and many onomatopoeias) but many others do not. Further more, it is difficult to develop any evidence for this theory, either in support or opposition to it.
ReplyDeleteW is in fact a vowel, I learned that in 1st grade. It is a vowel because it makes a vowel sound. It is also a vowel in the Welsh loanwords Cwm and Cwr. I learned that part in 10th grade English.
The dingdong theory seems to try to over apply the idea of onomatopoeia idea to all language in general as if every word is a expression of the brains phonetic reactions to impressions from the senses. This is not true because many words have no connection through their sounds to sensory impressions. Many words are not referring to things that have sensory impressions but to abstract ideas, so how can they show any onomatopoeia.
ReplyDeleteW and Y serve as vowels or consonants depending on their place in a word. When W follows a vowel it changes the sound of the vowel it
follows acting almost like double vowel.
I think sometimes about rhyme schemes because I think rymeing pulls a poem well together. However i don't usually concentrate on the internal sounds in the middle of the words and lines.
Often I do not feel like I elaborate enough in my poems and I could go back and add more detail and fill out the descriptions.
Michael
I agree with the above comment, the theory does seem to over apply the idea of onomatopoeia. Not all words are such, that is, they do not connect to sensory impressions through their sound. I think this theory was dropped because it would have been difficult to get the evidence necessary to prove it.
DeleteI am not quite sure of where the idea came from, but it makes sense. W and Y both make similar sounds, therefore, the prospect of W being a vowel is totally reasonable (for lack of a better way of putting it).
When I write I do not think about the sound of the letters. I do not think about sound as specifically as Mary Oliver. I do not concentrate on something so precise when I write, I just kind of write about what comes to mind.
I do agree. I often feel that my poems are not done to their full potential, so I do think I could go back, reread them, and make them better.
I personally have trouble finishing a poem. Time after time I spend rewriting and correcting my own poems. I feel as though I can't help myself. Its gets so bad that when I feel as though there is nothing else to do with the poem, and I should move on to publish it. I change its meaning and start to rewrite it all over again.
ReplyDelete"W" as a vowel was never taught at my school and had me doing some new research. Does this make me an idiot as well?
I often think about the sound or flow of my poem. That it must feel good to the ears, or have a pleasant sound. It can often stop a poem in its tracks. When I can no longer keep with the feel or flow of the poem, but its still left hanging.
I had never heard of 'w' being a vowel until I read this in Mary Oliver's book. It made me think and I, like Ryan looked it up because I found it hard to believe. I suppose that the few words that use it as a vowel make sense and can be sounded out, but it seems like one of those things that I'm going to have to sit with for a little bit in order to be okay with it.
ReplyDeleteI think that what Myers brings up in this section is very interesting. Sometimes I do try and look back on my poems and work on the meter, or the rhyme, or simply the ideas that are being expressed through the whole thing. But sometimes, I find that after a little work the poem isn't perfect, but I leave it as it is anyway because I don't want to ruin what is there so far.
There are poems that I feel should not be edited, because in doing so, some of the authenticity of the poem would be lost. I find this to be such with some of the 30+ poems I wrote during my solo and phenology time last semester. It seemed as though if I were to even change on word or line break from a poem, I would not be being true to it.
I think that sound is very important in a poem. In order for it to flow correctly, the meter and the rhyme(if any) must flow, and the poem as a whole needs to feel good when read out loud or in a persons head. To me, the way it sounds and works is a piece of writing is one of the most important parts because a sentence can be about and express whatever, but I feel as though a poem should express whatever that is in a more artful way. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here... but essentially, poems work to express things differently than prose.
I am a bit confused by the definition of "Dingdong theory". I know that this isn't the question but i think this definition is completely useless and just a jumble of words. Anyway, I am not convinced that the definition is dead, since after looking at some other definitions it is a theory of the origin of language. I haven't seen that theory replaced by anything else or an explanation of why it is discredited. Oliver just states that it is dead.
ReplyDeleteW is considered a vowel. Their is not much more to say than it can occasionally sound like one. How and House. The W sound stays the same while W changes to a u.
The only time i really consider how something sounds is if it sounds excessively clunky, and i try not to use extra words. I like concise sentences and ideas.
I think that Mary Oliver's opinion that "w" is sometimes a vowel is really interesting. She states, "A vowel forms a perfect sound when uttered alone. A consonant cannot be perfectly uttered till joined a vowel". By this definition, I would have thought that "w" would be a consonant. She also introduces semivowels and mutes, which are equally intriguing.
ReplyDeleteI definitely don't think about my poems letter by letter as it seems Mary Oliver does, but I think it would be a good challenge to do so.
I agree with Myers that a good way to continue a poem when you feel like you are stuck is to look back and "find ways to elaborate on this precious content". He shows good examples of how you can add more description if you do that, or change what you said into more precise words.
I don't think that the ding dong theory is accurate because there are to many exceptions to the rule, for instance, while you can find words like tiny that reflect size or gigantic, the word tall and small are to much alike. I think that it has to be considered a vowel because there are certainly combinations like "why" where it needs to be considered one, though there are not to many cases there are enough to support that it should be in the same boat as "Y"
ReplyDeleteI feel like the first versions of my poems are often the best, when I revise it I often over think it and it sounds over worked, or to precise, to be thought as creative.
First, I too was astounded to learn that W is considered a vowel. Realistically though, I don't know exactly what constitutes a vowel. My dictionary says a vowel is:
ReplyDelete1. A speech sound, created by the relatively free passage of breath through the larynx and oral cavity, usually forming the most prominent and central sound of a syllable.
2. A letter, such as a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y in the English alphabet, that represents a vowel.
Not only does this do little to help with my confusion, but W isn't listed at all. I guess what I'm getting at is: What is a vowel?
Currently, my thoughts about sound are little to none. This is why I found this chapter so interesting. The concise manner in which Oliver lists the number of rhythms was really helpful, as they give me a checklist of ideas to think about when structuring and adding emotion to my poetry. I am really looking forward to employing some of these concepts in my future work.
Lastly, I enjoy re-working my poetry a lot (more than editing papers), but I'm not sure why. I think that it's because I like coming up with a basic structure; an outline if you will, and then embellishing from there, finding words that either sound better, or that describe the scene, or emotion, more vividly. Another reason why I think I enjoy going back to a poem is because I constantly change my mind about what emphasis sounds good where, how I want the pauses to fall, and why I'm writing the poem in the first place (why it is important). I think these aspects of a poem are all really important to me because of my background in musical theater which makes me always think of the importance of timing and vocalization in the final product. Because of these things, I think it is important to rework poetry. In my experience, there has never been a poem that didn't (and still doesn't) require editing to improve its message.
I Dont write with the clear intention of sounding good, I just write. usually when i read it after i will change up a little bit just because some of my poetry turns into lyrics for a song, so that may be the only reason i will change something in my poetry.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that W could be considered a vowel was very interesting. It seems like a strange way to get the form to work. I thought the ding dong theory did not last because, like jack, there are too many exceptions and it is very confusing.
ReplyDeleteI do not at all focus on the precise elements of my writing, especially when i first start a piece. When I have an idea that I want to write about, I think of it as broad as possible and write how I feel about it. Once everything is down is when I will focus of more specific elements, but still not to the extent oliver described.